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New boxer engine (VVT) 2018?

Discussion in 'R1200RS Tech and Performance Chat' started by Mans Ulvestahl, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. James Bagley

    James Bagley Well-Known Member

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    I feel much the same about VVT as I do about turbos. They're great for brochures, but fall short on the street. My old 2-valve Guzzi only puts out about 75hp, but it feels very competent on the street due to the tractable low end that seamlessly transitions to a magnificent midrange. The top end is not much to gush about, but I rarely go there. My RS is much the same, only it has loads more power everywhere! I don't think either of these bikes would be improved with VVT (or a turbo)...at least from a user standpoint. Perhaps lower emissions will be worth the greater complexity.
     
  2. Bazza Beemer

    Bazza Beemer Well-Known Member

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    Interesting posts. Aussie Import your mention of free valve is interesting and I do believe the only engines I know of using it are F1 cars. With new technologies like Mazda's diesellike petrol engine with compression ignition and the free valve technology I am sure that these technologies will filter across to bikes soon. One of the best technologies for mechanical valve operating that I understand is the system employed by Ducati that mechanically forces the valves shut but all that is in the name of high rpm.
     
  3. runnerhiker

    runnerhiker Well-Known Member Contributor

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    VVT adds complexity but not a compromise. A turbo adds both, complexity and a compromise. Thus, VVT will not fall short on the street, it will give an engine what it needs at 3000 rpm and then transform itself and give the engine what it needs at 9000 rpm - there is no operating disadvantage at any rpm or transition from one rpm to another. A turbo, on the other hand, has the inherent disadvantage of turbo lag, and thus "fall short on the street" if turbo lag is not what one wants.
     
  4. damianadv

    damianadv Member

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    All this sounds promising but I don't think that prices will stay the same
    Probably a more powerful boxer will be around 26-27 k in the usa
    I 'll be very disappointed is something like this happens
    I know we BMW owners are rich but not crazy
     
  5. James Bagley

    James Bagley Well-Known Member

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    I did some reading on this topic. Apparently, the system is actually a third party engine accessory that offers variable valve lift. Alpha Racing is considering offering this patented system designed by former MZ engineer, Uwe Eisenbeis. These heads are reputed to raise horsepower by 15 and torque by 4ft pounds. Price is to be 6000 Euros...
     
  6. To and Fro

    To and Fro Active Member

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    Ouch. 6000 euros for 4 ft lb torque. Seems a bit pricey
     
  7. James Bagley

    James Bagley Well-Known Member

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    It sounds as though the additional hp is at the upper end of the rev range. More valve lift facilitates this. Perhaps they are also able to start with less lift for a more precise combustion chamber control down low, picking up a little torque. For some, 12% additional plug and play horsepower is well worth six large...but not me.
     
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  8. Aussie Import

    Aussie Import Well-Known Member

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    When I run out of power and feel the need, maybe my RS will be modded. However, I really don't see when or how I could run out of power.
     
  9. SauRoN

    SauRoN Well-Known Member

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    Yes bring on Koenigsegg's Freevalve to all our bikes and cars and don't go putting old crap into new bikes.

    Come on BMW! Be first to do this for bikes.

     
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  10. Richard230

    Richard230 Well-Known Member Contributor

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    It has been my observation over the years that BMW will not use anyone else's patented technology that they have to pay for. They much prefer to develop new technology in-house than license anyone else's ideas - especially if that technology might also be offered to any other motorcycle or automotive company.
     
  11. Aussie Import

    Aussie Import Well-Known Member

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    So tell us again about the invention of the Telelever.
     
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  12. Peter Burridge

    Peter Burridge Well-Known Member Contributor

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    Volume, Volume, Tone eh, I'm more of an active bass fan myself, 3 EQ all the way :)

    Yes I do know what VVT is in as engine context. My question is do we need the complexity and expense? The present engine is flexible, has plenty of mid range and does it's job on the road.
     
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  13. James Bagley

    James Bagley Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, though I believe it is significant that this design does not alter the cam timing, but the amount of intake valve lift (Alpha Racing refers to the system as VVL rather than VVT). Such a system would be a great deal more linear than a dual cam profile and would enhance power using conventional cams. Potentially, this could be a big improvement over previous variable valve heads. In the bargain, less lift at low rpms will enhance torque and reduce fuel consumption and emissions. Pretty ingenious, I'd say...

    IMG_0229.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  14. Bub

    Bub Active Member

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    The head with VVL pictured in this article doesn't look like the head referenced in previous links about a VVT motor. I'm thinking BMW has their own version they're working on.
     
  15. James Bagley

    James Bagley Well-Known Member

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    Alpha Racing is affiliated with BMW's racing program (the article is in a BMW-generated magazine). I think this VVL design probably started as an emissions measure. Less lift at low rpms targets the portion of the EPA and Euro4 testing protocol that is the most difficult to pass. The high rpm benefits are lagniappe...
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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  16. shorn sheep

    shorn sheep Active Member

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    After watching the freevalve video I'm a convert! with the weight and space saving of a freevalve boxer there would easily be room for a turbo. The displacement could be brought down while still making more power and torque than the complex vvt engine. Bring it on!
     
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  17. Gregory Clark

    Gregory Clark Active Member Contributor

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    Or modify an existing design just enough to not infringe on patents.
     
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  18. runnerhiker

    runnerhiker Well-Known Member Contributor

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    I can imagine a future gasoline engine with variable valve timing and lift. No cams. No valve springs. It optimizes when a valve opens and closes and how much it lifts for a particular RPM - what a fantastic engine this would be! The VVT discussed in this thread is a step in that direction. It's coming.
     
  19. Vtbob

    Vtbob Well-Known Member

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    There are low RPM engines in various stages of development and test that use electrically controlled "solenoids" (not completely accurate) to provide valve acuation. In these design these "valves" are computer controlled...give optimized (HP/torque/emission) for the give engine load/rpm. The potential of this design deleting cams/springs is obvious, claims of 30% or more fuel efficiency are being made. There is also the potential of significantly less parasitic power loss (compressing valve springs, spinning cams and gears,etc) and less engine weight and physical size.

    The question is how long will the combustion engine continue be allowed to evolve, before electric engines take over???
     
  20. Richard230

    Richard230 Well-Known Member Contributor

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    I believe that the Telelever design was invented by an English fellow some years before it arrived on BMW's doorstep. Then BMW "borrowed" the fork design, tweaked it a bit, gave it a new copyrighted name and patented their design. ;) But I bet they didn't pay him for the opportunity to use it on their motorcycles. :rolleyes:
     
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